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+--- Thread: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard (/showthread.php?tid=72)
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - JanH - 09-16-2019
Ragamuffins are IRCA Ragdolls renamed and then bred to be enough different from cat fancy Ragdolls to seek recognition of a Ragamuffin breed in the cat fancy.
Ann knew better than to worry about the breadth of the IRCA Ragdoll gene pool, since she always outcrossed without showing it in her public pedigrees and that increased as time went on. The more likely explanation of her inclusion (to at least some degree) of solids and minks into IRCA Ragdolls was to be able to sell such cats. She had attempted to create other breeds previously, including solid. They failed and she rolled some of that "effort" into her IRCA Ragdolls. That is one reason that the cat fancy moved away over time from accepting IRCA Ragdolls into the cat fancy breed. The last big influx was when TICA was founded and Ragdoll breeders wanted a larger group of breeders and cats.
Curt was involved in the outcross of minks into IRCA Ragdolls and also was a founder of the Ragamuffins. He registered his IRCA Ragdolls as Ragamuffins - the new name. That resulted in objection to those cats others had indicated in TICA were Ragdolls. (They were IRCA Ragdolls, since that is what Curt bred before Ragamuffins were established with the cats). So, there are at least three "breeds" at the end of the day, with common origins. Ann Baker Ragdolls, which became IRCA Ragdolls, cat fancy Ragdolls whose origins were from cats gotten from Ann early in the breed's history and then more reliably bred to cat fancy standards and Ragamuffins, who were IRCA Ragdolls after Ann's changes to the breed over the years and then bred to be even more different from the then cat fancy Ragdolls to gain acceptance.
The basic fact is that cat fancy Ragdoll breeders have refused to accept minks or solids as Ragdolls. Breeders of these cats are not honest about (or are ignorant of) their (lack of) status in the cat fancy Ragdoll breed.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - admin - 09-16-2019
Thanks for the comprehensive explanation!
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - McKeu - 09-25-2019
There has to have been a reason for Ann to not register the two solids from her first official Ragdoll litter as Ragdolls. She only registered the pointed ones.
This basically tells me that she considered solid as an undesirable feat in a Ragdoll.
And a mink is basically a crossbreed and more often than not ends up having a different eye color than the desired blue.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - admin - 10-13-2019
(09-16-2019, 11:30 AM)JanH Wrote: Ragamuffins are IRCA Ragdolls renamed and then bred to be enough different from cat fancy Ragdolls to seek recognition of a Ragamuffin breed in the cat fancy.
Ann knew better than to worry about the breadth of the IRCA Ragdoll gene pool, since she always outcrossed without showing it in her public pedigrees and that increased as time went on. The more likely explanation of her inclusion (to at least some degree) of solids and minks into IRCA Ragdolls was to be able to sell such cats. She had attempted to create other breeds previously, including solid. They failed and she rolled some of that "effort" into her IRCA Ragdolls. That is one reason that the cat fancy moved away over time from accepting IRCA Ragdolls into the cat fancy breed. The last big influx was when TICA was founded and Ragdoll breeders wanted a larger group of breeders and cats.
Curt was involved in the outcross of minks into IRCA Ragdolls and also was a founder of the Ragamuffins. He registered his IRCA Ragdolls as Ragamuffins - the new name. That resulted in objection to those cats others had indicated in TICA were Ragdolls. (They were IRCA Ragdolls, since that is what Curt bred before Ragamuffins were established with the cats). So, there are at least three "breeds" at the end of the day, with common origins. Ann Baker Ragdolls, which became IRCA Ragdolls, cat fancy Ragdolls whose origins were from cats gotten from Ann early in the breed's history and then more reliably bred to cat fancy standards and Ragamuffins, who were IRCA Ragdolls after Ann's changes to the breed over the years and then bred to be even more different from the then cat fancy Ragdolls to gain acceptance.
The basic fact is that cat fancy Ragdoll breeders have refused to accept minks or solids as Ragdolls. Breeders of these cats are not honest about (or are ignorant of) their (lack of) status in the cat fancy Ragdoll breed.
I had a lengthy exchange on Facebook with the daughter of the breeder at Fancicat Farms, (I linked her website above), earlier today. Interestingly it sounds like she has been something of a victim of bad information regarding the unaccepted variants and believes that she's actually contributing to the breed in a fashion. Her daughter wishes to become a breeder one day and has a better understanding now of why the breed standard exists and why the unaccepted variants are not included. They have been under the impression that these variants are not included in the breed standard because Ragdoll breeders don't want the competition and that someday these variants will be included in the breed standard. I've extended the invitation to join here to them both so hopefully they will. It does sound like they have a genuine interest in breeding healthy cats and they do test their breeding stock for HCM. Hopefully the good conversation lays the groundwork for change.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - JanH - 10-13-2019
Any breeder can breed these variants, so they are not rejected out of "envy." In fact, the traditional cats have always been more popular with pet owners and that includes vis a vis reds and lynx, accepted variants. The problem with adding solids and minks is that the breed, a moderate breed often not distinguishable from shelter cats by non-breeders, become an everything breed when all of the solid variants and minks are in the mix. And, of course, an everything breed promptly devolves into a nothing breed.
Another major problem is the rush of outcrossing that comes with acceptance of new variants, some of which is demanded by some associations, particularly outside the US. This happened with both reds and lynx.
We just rid ourselves of the source of HCM in our breed out of diligence of a few breeders, participation of many others, the skill of Dr. Meurs and LUCK. We are the ONLY breed to have had this luck. I hate to see us throw that away just to have solids and minks. I lived through the heartbreak of many Ragdolls dead of HCM, untreatable and with a painful death experienced or ordained. Many breeders (HCM DNA was in about 30% of the breed) became afraid to hear the phone ring for fear it was the news that one of their kittens was dead or had received a death sentence. Anyone who risks a return to that has no heart - or sense.
Ragdolls have just become the most popular breed in CFA, who will not register solids or minks or even their close pointed descendants. The success of the breed is as a pointed only breed. Compare the success of cat fancy Ragdolls to later IRCA Ragdolls and Ragamuffins, both of which include solids and minks. Ask yourself why that is true if there is something about solids and minks that makes us quake at competition with them. There has been competition - and it is the pointed cats who have won.
It has taken many years to educate the pet buying public what it takes to be a Ragdoll and that they cannot just go to a shelter and choose a moggy. Undo it at peril to the breed. When Siamese were challlenged by all of the feral offspring in shelters and with backyard breeders, they made the cat fancy breed so spidery that they are a cartoon of the breed. I would hate such things done to Ragdolls.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - admin - 10-13-2019
Eloquently put as usual. Hopefully your words hit home.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - admin - 10-16-2019
So I'm having an exchange with a breeder of traditional Ragdolls on Facebook in regard to TICA registration.
"With Ragdolls an exception was made many years ago where they were allowed to bring in outcrosses ( not my breed, and before my time). If those outcrosses were domestics or had to be another pedigreed cat, I dont know. After a year, the standard went back to the normal where no further outcrosses were allowed. The breeder of these cats, despite them not meeting standard has continued to breed them. That's up to her, but it is beyond me why. Because, of that year of outcrossing they could be now registered 10 years later ( or whatever the time line is). But since that year of outcrossing, only those registered during that time and bred during that time can keep registration status, in other words, they havent added any other cats, but kept breeding the solid kittens down through the years. If however, you tried to take a registered ragdoll and any other cat now, you would not be able to register those kittens." So is this so or is she misinformed? I'm trying to fathom why cats who don't even resemble Ragdolls can be registered with TICA. This one for example:
![[Image: 48910693948_3a6e7d294a_n.jpg]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48910693948_3a6e7d294a_n.jpg)
These are his papers:
![[Image: 48911427197_3d3429bd3f_n.jpg]](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48911427197_3d3429bd3f_n.jpg)
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - JanH - 10-16-2019
Sadly wrong, under TICA rules a breed can have approved outcrosses. put in place when the gene pool is believed to need it, for example. Ragdolls have NEVER had them. When TICA was founded, Ragdoll breeders sought to increase numbers by bringing in IRCA breeders. Unknown to other Ragdoll breeders, some of those breeders brought in their solids and registered them as Ragdolls. It was not a happy time when other Ragdoll breeders discovered this.
On the other hand, under TICA registration rules a cat can be registered with a breed if ONE parent is a registered member of the breed. So, one can breed a Burmese with a Ragdoll and register the kittens, including minks and sepias with the Ragdolls. HOWEVER, this does not change the breed standard which specifies what variants are in the breed and can be shown. In TICA, the breed is controlled by the breed standard and NOT registration. The theory is that it means breeders can be honest about parentage, which is important since "paper hanging" - which is having a false parent - has been a serious problem in the cat fancy and the TICA approaches respond to problems the founders perceived in the cat fancy at the time. That is the reason that TICA is also much more democratic. The organization is controlled by individual TICA members. CFA is an aggregation of clubs and the concern is that the clubs (and breeds) can be controlled by a small group.
A line of minks came in by outcrossing into IRCA Ragdolls (who became Ragamuffins). Solids came in from outcrosses in IRCA with IRCA breeders who were breeding them there. However, who knows where specific cats got their variant genetics. No doubt there are other outcrosses to bring them in, but ...
In any event, TICA registration and show rules have caused no end of confusion - and the opportunity for some to misrepresent their cats and their status.
In terms of cats who have bad type, that can just be an issue of how good the breeder might be and how they respond to producing poor cats. One can produce poor cats from fully traditional lines and typey cats. Just as you can selevctively breed to get better breed type (as a good breeder should), you can, through ignorance or worse, breed "for" terrible type. Some do this aa a matter of taste and this has resulted in some cats with longer hair cats with hard to manage coats, rounder faces and eyes ...
The cat you pictured has NO noticeable Ragdoll traits - wrong color, terrible pattern, terrible boning, wrong eye color ....
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - admin - 10-16-2019
Thanks for providing some clarity.
Interestingly the cat I listed above arrived with papers indicating that he's 4 months old and she was told 8 months so lord only knows what kind of cat she got or if this is even the one attached to the papers. She did allow as how she got a great deal at $350 so that's also pretty telling...
Edit: That cat, for the record, is not of this breeder's breeding but one that another member has just purchased elsewhere, she actually brought up the fact that the cat doesn't even remotely resemble a Ragdoll, which started the conversation.
RE: Sepia/Mink/Solid Ragdolls and the breed standard - JanH - 10-16-2019
A moggie for $350 is well over the shelter fees one would pay for an "equal" cat. A cheap Ragdoll is sadly too often an expensive moggy.